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« Thread Started on Feb 25, 2007, 4:02pm »
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University of Notre Dame Sydney campus opens its medical school in 2008.

WunderBunny's Notes from Information Session, Sunday 25 March 2007

UND conducted a one hour presentation with its key School of Medicine staff and invited us to stay back for an hour of questioning:
  • PBL tutors are available for 8.5-9 hours per week. The tutors will be medical practitioners and not a PhD student or science grad. They will be called 'group tutors' because they will be available at non-PBL times.

  • All teachers have strong clinical background as opposed to people with purely academic careers.

  • Clinical Skills Lab for practising procedures (wound closure, CPR) before doing it on the general public. Linkage of clinical skills lab work with PBL content. (I would expect every uni to do that.)

  • Clinical placements: students will not complete with students from other courses to get access to wards/patients. They cited UMelb for sending all their students to a maternity ward where they would have to compete with midwifery students for births. They promised UND students would have exclusive access to '1000 births' at Auburn Hospital.

  • Ratio of students to paid teaching staff to students will be the lowest in Australia. They emphasised the fact they wanted to be the school which produced the 'best' graduates. Something about people being able to recognise them as UND graduates.

    I asked them about resentment from other med schools (similar to what I noticed on the forum). It was a surprise to them. As for the other disciplines, the other unis seem to be accommodating to their presence. (Background: I noticed Galta (UMelb) and Hildy (UNSW) being annoyed that the clinical placements at the most prestigious hospitals were being taken by UND.)

  • 90 minute debrief session every week for the duration of the course so that students can review what happened to them during that week.

  • Clinical placements outside Sydney are in rural areas. Somehow they claim to get exclusive access to patients/wards which other unis don't offer. I don't know how they can achieve it and the other unis don't/can't.

  • UND FFP is cheaper than the public uni FFP because they don't want a FFP student to subsidise the cost of the CSP student. For CSP, the student pays ~$8K and the government tops it up to ~$24,500. UND charges ~$24,500 for its FFP whilst the public unis asked for >$30,000.

  • Core Curriculum: (euphemism for the Catholic syllabus) comprises ethics, philosophy and theology. They said the course is tailored for medical students. I see this as an additional overhead to a very full course. Nursepitto told me he spent 6 hours on his theology essay and got a Credit for it. I have never encountered a UND student, who thought UND was pushing a certain view of ethics (right to life, contraception etc).

  • 200 hours of anatomy instruction.

  • Melbourne school: The Sydney campus will comprise students who live in Sydney and Melbourne. I did not know this until today. If you live in Melbourne, you can apply for UND Sydney and do all your lectures/clinical work in Melbourne. It is all set up at UND Melbourne, but they are effectively enrolled in the Sydney program (as opposed to the Fremantle program).

  • Years 3/4: one professional mentor per two students. They are really big on personalised attention and helping the students to network with medical professionals.


Other things I noted:

  • Difference between Fremantle and Sydney program: Fremantle's mission is to service areas of unmet need (in medicine). Sydney's mission is to produce leaders in public health and administration. I did not write it all down but that is what I think they said.

  • Offer criteria is not 20:20:60 (gpa:gamsat:interview) as it is in Fremantle. They would not say what it is. A lot depends on the 'supplementary info form'. They want us to outline all our leadership roles. It is one thing to say you play footy but you get extra points for being footy captain. They are going to regret this. Everybody will be a sports captain/choir master in their applications.

  • Some of the kids asking questions have no idea. I watched the Admissions officer field a question about how does the GPA become a number between 0-7 when each subject has 6 credit points? I offered her free membership of Paging Dr! :P

  • Other kids were too damn pushy for their own good. Nik and I were patiently waiting for ages and they were just asking variations of the same question. In the end, I interrupted them.

  • About a hundred people attended. Maybe half of them 'fessed up to sitting GAMSAT yesterday. The Broadway campus is small, cosy, clean and very attractive. Cobblestone pathway and sandstone buildings. I liked it a lot.
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Re: University of Notre Dame Australia
« Reply #1 on Mar 7, 2007, 6:15pm »
From NDs website
http://www.nd.edu.au/sydney/about/darlinghurst.shtml

"The Sydney School of Medicine is planning to offer a Bachelor of Medicine / Bachelor of Surgery (MBBS) programme at Darlinghurst commencing in 2008. The date of commencement of this course will be determined according to the accreditation guidelines of the Australian Medical Council. All degrees will be accredited with the respective Australian regulatory authorities. Commonwealth Supported Places (CPS) formally known as Higher Education Contribution Scheme (HECS) places, have been approved by the Commonwealth Government".

I went to their info evening at the end of 06 It seems like it will be quite a good course.
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Re: University of Notre Dame Australia
« Reply #2 on Mar 9, 2007, 1:40pm »
Just wondering how everyon'e finding the course so far? It has been almost 2 weeks since uni startes. I am thinking of applying to ND so am really interested in what you're doing and what first year has in store for you :D
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Re: University of Notre Dame Australia
« Reply #3 on Mar 9, 2007, 3:51pm »
We are now into our sixth week - All is going really well. It is a fantastic course however many people are pretty shell-shocked at the pace it is going at - however things are starting to settle a little bit. The Notre Dame course was purchased from UQ so it is pretty much the exact same course... I don't know what Sydney will be like but Fremantle is a great place. There are really good facilities and it is a nice relaxing place to learn.... and relax on the beach :)
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Re: University of Notre Dame Australia
« Reply #4 on Mar 9, 2007, 4:21pm »
Yeah, ND Sydney will be my 2nd preference (USyd being first).

The only thing I'm worried about is this,

"8) The option of training in one of 3 Clinical Schools.
A Sydney metropolitan Clinical School.
A Melbourne metropolitan Clinical School.
A Rural Clinical School."

Does that mean WE can choose? Or THEY can choose... Coz I certainly don't want to be shipped to Melbourne!!!
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Re: University of Notre Dame Australia
« Reply #5 on Mar 9, 2007, 6:09pm »
Im interested in the Syd campus...

does anyone know (i guess this question is for people at ND PERTH) if during the interview ND likes you to have volunteer experience or what kind of questions you were asked about experience?


Any help would be appreciated,

thanx!
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Re: University of Notre Dame Australia
« Reply #6 on Mar 9, 2007, 9:15pm »

Quote:
Yeah, ND Sydney will be my 2nd preference (USyd being first).

The only thing I'm worried about is this,

"8) The option of training in one of 3 Clinical Schools.
A Sydney metropolitan Clinical School.
A Melbourne metropolitan Clinical School.
A Rural Clinical School."

Does that mean WE can choose? Or THEY can choose... Coz I certainly don't want to be shipped to Melbourne!!!


The wording in the Course Info Flyer is a little different:
"The University of Notre Dame Sydney School of Medicine will take a focus along the entire eastern seaboard of Australia and will include the potential for students to undertake clinical years training in Qld, NSW and Victoria.
The first two years of the course will be taught mainly at the University of Notre Dame Australia Darlinghurst Campus in Sydney with clinical attachments off-campus. The Notre Dame School of Medicine will have new facilities including a state of the art clinical skills facility and a simulated ward environment.
The second two years of the course will be held at clinical schools based along the eastern seaboard of Australia which will include a Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane Clinical School and an Eastern Australian Rural Clinical School."


??? I suspect THEY choose but, we need clarification.
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Re: University of Notre Dame Australia
« Reply #7 on Mar 9, 2007, 11:29pm »
Hey subterranean

Thanks for your post! I recently met an intern who had just graduated from UQ - he talked very highly of the course.

Have you started any pracs yet? I am interested to know which hospitals you will be allocated to - I heard that ND is using mainly private hospitals to train med students, not sure where I heard that from...How much time do you spend at Curtin -are the anatomy classes there? I loved Curtin - am currently trying to get through my masters in public health.

Great to hear you're enjoying the course!
;D
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Re: University of Notre Dame Australia
« Reply #8 on Mar 10, 2007, 5:34am »

Quote:

Quote:
Yeah, ND Sydney will be my 2nd preference (USyd being first).

The only thing I'm worried about is this,

"8) The option of training in one of 3 Clinical Schools.
A Sydney metropolitan Clinical School.
A Melbourne metropolitan Clinical School.
A Rural Clinical School."

Does that mean WE can choose? Or THEY can choose... Coz I certainly don't want to be shipped to Melbourne!!!


The wording in the Course Info Flyer is a little different:
"The University of Notre Dame Sydney School of Medicine will take a focus along the entire eastern seaboard of Australia and will include the potential for students to undertake clinical years training in Qld, NSW and Victoria.
The first two years of the course will be taught mainly at the University of Notre Dame Australia Darlinghurst Campus in Sydney with clinical attachments off-campus. The Notre Dame School of Medicine will have new facilities including a state of the art clinical skills facility and a simulated ward environment.
The second two years of the course will be held at clinical schools based along the eastern seaboard of Australia which will include a Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane Clinical School and an Eastern Australian Rural Clinical School."


??? I suspect THEY choose but, we need clarification.


That's right. If there is a slight possibility that I would be shipped to another state for long periods I wouldn't do the course. If it's just for like 6 weeks or something, that's fine!! But not for the whole year!

I would imagine it would make working very hard for those that need to work while studying, too!!
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Re: University of Notre Dame Australia
« Reply #9 on Mar 10, 2007, 7:09am »

Quote:
Hey subterranean

Thanks for your post! I recently met an intern who had just graduated from UQ - he talked very highly of the course.

Have you started any pracs yet? I am interested to know which hospitals you will be allocated to - I heard that ND is using mainly private hospitals to train med students, not sure where I heard that from...How much time do you spend at Curtin -are the anatomy classes there? I loved Curtin - am currently trying to get through my masters in public health.

Great to hear you're enjoying the course!
;D


RE: the public versus private question, at the info evening the Dean said they do half and half. So in the 3rd year of the course you will be in the public system and the forth year shall be spent private, or vice versa.

The reasoning behind this was to ensure that students were exposed to a variety of systems, pts and settings.
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Re: University of Notre Dame Australia
« Reply #10 on Mar 10, 2007, 7:41am »
I sent them an email this morning about the clinical schools. Let's hope they reply soon! :)
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Re: University of Notre Dame Australia
« Reply #11 on Mar 10, 2007, 11:33am »

Quote:

That's right. If there is a slight possibility that I would be shipped to another state for long periods I wouldn't do the course. If it's just for like 6 weeks or something, that's fine!! But not for the whole year!

I would imagine it would make working very hard for those that need to work while studying, too!!


I've not even considered ND Sydney because of the interstate issue. I want to stay in NSW.

It will be interesting to hear what ND has to say about it. :)
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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #12 on Mar 13, 2007, 3:03pm »
Im suprised that they are mentioning clinical rotations in QLD due to the huge amount of students that are already present within QLD
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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #13 on Mar 13, 2007, 4:09pm »
Well, I heard back from them today.

"Thank you for your email requesting further information on our clinical programs associated with the MBBS course. We will work with our students to try and make sure they get their clinical schools of choice, this is very important to our Dean. It is most likely that, once a student has chosen their preferred location (QLD, NSW, VIC), that is where they will complete the two years clinical training. I believe that within that location, not all of it has to be completed rurally. Students may have the option of switching programs, if they start off in NSW for example and want/need to move to VIC, this would be assessed on a case-by-case basis and would depend on the availability of placements."

So it looks like you are not guaranteed your choice, but they will work hard to make sure that everyone is happy (which never happens, of course!)

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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #14 on Mar 13, 2007, 4:12pm »
Oh! And they will be having an information session at 11am at their Broadway Campus on 25th March (day after doomsday!)

She said if I wanted to come I had to email her my details so she could send me an invite.

Unfortunately I couldn't find any information on this on their website - only that they are also having an information session in Fremantle about MBBS.

So maybe if you're interested, email her? sydney@nd.edu.au
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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #15 on Mar 13, 2007, 6:45pm »
I hate to say it, but seriously...where on earth do they want to fit more medical students in QLD?? we are busting at the seams! I'm guessing that maybe ND would send their students to Catholic private hospitals???
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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #16 on Mar 14, 2007, 9:36am »
ND Sydney are muscling us out of one of our clinical schools or so it seems, anyway.
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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #17 on Mar 15, 2007, 12:01pm »
The information about the Information Session in Sydney is now up on their website.

Date: Sunday 25 March
Time: 11.00am-1.00pm
Venue: Saint Benedict’s Hall; 104 Broadway (this will be sign-posted on the day)
Parking: Unfortunately there is no parking on Campus, however metered parking is available in the surrounding streets.

If you are able to attend, please contact the Student Centre on (02) 8204 4404 or at sydney@nd.edu.au and register by Thursday 22 March. If registering by email, please provide your name a contact number and the number of people who will be attending.

http://www.nd.edu.au/sydney/openday/medicineCie.shtml

RSVP by Thursday March 22
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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #18 on Mar 22, 2007, 10:11pm »

Quote:
ND Sydney are muscling us out of one of our clinical schools or so it seems, anyway.


... make that two of our clinical schools
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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #19 on Mar 23, 2007, 7:33am »

Quote:
[quote author=galtaforce board=universities thread=1172383338 post=1173829003]

I can't believe they're getting CSPs. What's the point?



Can you explain that a bit further? I am looking at ND but have my reservations.
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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #20 on Mar 23, 2007, 12:10pm »
UND did not create this problem. The Australian Government allowed more medical school places to be offered. This means the overall number of students is increasing. Consequently, more places for clinical placement and post grad training are required. It does not matter whether these new students come from a new university like, UND or an existing one like USyd. Increased student numbers should be accommodated for by increased clinical/post grad training places. Governments at both state and federal level, are not committing enough support for the increase in student numbers.

The problem lies with the Australian Government's lack of foresight. They tell the public they are improving the health system by increasing the number of medical students. What the public does not know is that a place at uni does not make you a fully-trained doctor. In a few years' time, we will end up with a lot of half-trained doctors.

UND's capacity to offer CSP is a result of the Federal Government's initiative to increase student places. If these places, were instead allocated to an existing school, such as Uni of Sydney, would you blame University of Sydney stealing places from other universities? The situation would still be the same.
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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #21 on Mar 23, 2007, 4:22pm »
I think that as long as UND teaches the course without religious bias, there is probably little issue.

That being said, I find the entire concept of a tertiary educational facility having a nominal religion to be entirely weird. There is a question of the degree of religious interference in the course material. Ethics aside, medicine is rooted in biological sciences, a subject that is in conflict with any number for religious dogma.

I personally do consider religiosity in medical students to be a problem, insofar that religion seems to be a "criticism free zone" in "polite" society. I still remember in my university days that essays on ethics could be done in two ways; the "proper" way of actually learning and understanding the plurality of different ethical systems as applied to biomedical ethics, or by quoting scripture.

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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #22 on Mar 23, 2007, 5:11pm »
While UND is private, their full fee places are cheaper than those offered by any public university in Australia.

The government sets the cost of a medical degree to be $24,500 per student per year. For the CSP places, the student pays "only" ~$8,000 and the government pays the remainder to bring the total up to $24,500. Effectively, every university receives exactly $24,500 for each CSP/MRBS/BMP student.

When it comes to FFP, every university sets its own price. The public universities charge anything between $30K and $38K per student per annum. Notre Dame charges $24,500. Therefore Notre Dame receives the same money from its (private and publicly funded students), whereas the public universities collect up to $13,500 more per student per annum from FFP students.

I stress to add I am not catholic. As a potential full fee paying student, I am interested in the fee-setting practices of the publicly funded unis.

Please use these figures as a rough guide. They were correct twelve months ago. I understand UND had raised their FFP price a little and there have been similar changes to HECS and government contributions. Nevertheless, the difference between what publicly funded unis and Notre Dame charges for FFP is still significant.
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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #23 on Mar 24, 2007, 7:36pm »
There was no explicit "scripture" option in my day (and yes, I'm an alumni of UNSW), however, anyone who put in an ethics essay with "reasoning" based on scripture (an oxymoron!) had as good a chance of doing well.

Again, religion seems to be a "criticism free zone".

I would love to seem someone rebel and write an ethics article based on the "teachings" of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster! ;)

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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #24 on Mar 24, 2007, 8:29pm »
is anyone going to the thingy tomorrow? i was planning to but after today's exam i feel a bit bummed out and not sure i want to throw myself into a med-related seminar so soon
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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #25 on Mar 24, 2007, 9:23pm »
Vitualis, when did you graduate from UNSW? You may have known my sister...
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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #26 on Mar 25, 2007, 8:39am »

Quote:
is anyone going to the thingy tomorrow? i was planning to but after today's exam i feel a bit bummed out and not sure i want to throw myself into a med-related seminar so soon


Yup, I'm going. I'm curious about how their medical program will work, with everyone scattered across the country!!!!
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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #27 on Mar 25, 2007, 8:43am »
It looks like UND has slipped through the net. Before opening a medical school, they had to get accreditation through the Australian Medical Council. Nobody, be they Catholic, Anglican or James Packer, can open a medical school in Australia without accreditation. If there is something wrong with the accreditation process, this should be known.

If there are not enough places for clinical and post graduate training, it is not the fault of the individual unis. The federal government permitted the new school places to be allocated and expect the state government to commit to the clinical placements and post grad training. The states say it is a federal responsibility. ::)

No matter who gets the extra places (public uni or private uni) the same problem results.

Regarding profit making and cutting corners:

At first, UND is profit making until it is pointed out that UND's fees are cheaper than the public universities. To explain that, UND is cutting corners, whilst the public unis have a realistic view of the cost of medical education. If UND's fees were comparable to the public unis, would we say UND has a realistic view of the medical education costs or are they profiteering?

Be careful about giving the impression that:

Everything about the public university can be justified because public univeristies are good. Everything about the private university cannot be justified because the private university's existence itself is not justified.

If anyone has issues about the existence of private universities (catholic or otherwise), you are welcome to open a thread in our RANTS board.

This thread is for sharing information about the UND medical program, not to question its right to exist.
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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #28 on Mar 25, 2007, 8:52am »
Was that aimed at me, WB?? :-/

I will be putting UND Syd as a preference (#2), and am quite happy to go there even though there are some question marks from others about how the program will 'fit in' with existing programs.

My comment above was really a reflection of my curiosity, in that I do wonder how logistically it is going to work with people in Melbourne, people in QLD, people in NSW... What will the supports be like for those that are not near the main campus? Will there be lectures still in those years? Or will it be purely practical placements? Will communication be more online based? All those sorts of questions spring to mind when thinking about how they are planning to run the course. I don't necessarily think it is a bad thing that they are placing students in different states - I could imagine for those that come from Melbourne, to be able to go back to Melbourne for the last 2 years would probably be welcome!!

Anyway, if it was not (WB), then uhh, the above is an explanation of what I hope to get answered today. I will post how things went when I get back... :D
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Re: University of Notre Dame (Sydney)
« Reply #29 on Mar 25, 2007, 9:02am »
I will be there too today, TerraNik. Actually, I should be getting some breakfast now and getting ready to leave! I am not planning to make them my No 1 preference either. They don't open their doors to the public every day. So I might as well take a look.

My comments were in response to the outrage at a private uni 'muscling out' the clinical placements of existing schools. If the places had gone to existing (public) med schools, I question whether the same outrage would exist. The issues about clinical placements/post grad training are valid. They should not be hijacked by an anti-private uni sentiment.

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